View topic - Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam Home Renovation

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hunts01	Post subject: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 193	Just new to the forum, great discussions make for long and interesting reading! We are undertaking an o/b project next year and are in the process of having some plans drawn up for our split level home, (tri level with the top level being over the front and the middle level receding up the rear of the block on stumps due to the 4m fall, rising to the rear. Now, before we commit to a cladding system before the architect has to draw up the proper plans and not just concept ones, we are weighing up the different options mainly assessing cost v time and effort.. We are leaning towards hebel powerpanels for the bottom and middle and probably the top although the polyfoam (masterwall) could be used for the top. Hebel is obviously stronger than foam, I have heard some horror stories about the different foams, although the stories mainly seem to be about water getting in behind, which would be due to incorrect installation. The other option of course is to brick the bottom and middle level and use the foam or hebel for the top. Bricks seem to be the tried and proven method, they can also assist with the sub floor by using piers. Downside is the footings required for the extra weight of bricks and labour to lay the bricks (and getting a bricky). Thirdly, how would hebel which from what i have seen for sit on a bracket along the subfloor. My query would be, how do you cover the area from the sub floor to the ground, and if you had hebel to the ground then you would need strip footings anyway due to the weight, would the hebel be affected by the ground / moisture?? Sorry a bit of a long read but any help / advice or experiences would be greatly appreaciated. Hunts
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James Bond	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	hunts01 wrote: Just new to the forum, great discussions make for long and interesting reading! We are undertaking an o/b project next year and are in the process of having some plans drawn up for our split level home, (tri level with the top level being over the front and the middle level receding up the rear of the block on stumps due to the 4m fall, rising to the rear. Now, before we commit to a cladding system before the architect has to draw up the proper plans and not just concept ones, we are weighing up the different options mainly assessing cost v time and effort.. We are leaning towards hebel powerpanels for the bottom and middle and probably the top although the polyfoam (masterwall) could be used for the top. Hebel is obviously stronger than foam, I have heard some horror stories about the different foams, although the stories mainly seem to be about water getting in behind, which would be due to incorrect installation. The other option of course is to brick the bottom and middle level and use the foam or hebel for the top. Bricks seem to be the tried and proven method, they can also assist with the sub floor by using piers. Downside is the footings required for the extra weight of bricks and labour to lay the bricks (and getting a bricky). Thirdly, how would hebel which from what i have seen for sit on a bracket along the subfloor. My query would be, how do you cover the area from the sub floor to the ground, and if you had hebel to the ground then you would need strip footings anyway due to the weight, would the hebel be affected by the ground / moisture?? Sorry a bit of a long read but any help / advice or experiences would be greatly appreaciated. Hunts We have gone through the same process and although we were never considering bricks we did consider Hebel for a while. In the end we have decided to go Masterwall on both the ground and first floor due to - - better energy rating - much lighter construction (hence less structural support) - lower cost. - Masterwall can be installed horizontally or vertically whereas Hebel only recommend vertical installation. This causes issues with a stumped house as the panels are 2.4m high and you are likely to want a lot more than this to cover the area under the house and also the floor, plus 2.4 room height (at least). btw we will be on a light steel frame. When we were discussing Hebel it was suggested that the hebel could sit on a steel ledge but I think this had to be 150mm above the ground. The other thing is with Hebel if you are going to have it rendered rather than clad with something else it is recommended to screw it to the frame from the inside. This is the opposite to what Hebel recommend. However if you screw it from the outside there are always marks in the render where the fixings have been covered over which looks rubbish after a while. HTH JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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hunts01
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 193	Thanks for the quick reply! I actually spoke to a builder in Toorak who was on the Masterwall website with a display home and he raved about it. Have you already started construction? How will the foam panels travel to the ground, obviously with the lightness of the product it will not need any weight bearing system, does it need any special flashing or process in fixing it down to ground level, so water and etc can't get into it and onto the frame? Secondly are you going to affix them your self of employ a chippy / Masterwall installer and if so did you have an idea of the costs associated with the installation and or rendering?? I must agree the thermal benefits and ease of installation are very big plus's, any idea why bricks are still the largest method of building if they are more labour intensvie / costly and not as thermally efficient?? Cheers, thanks again. Hunts.
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	hunts01 wrote: Thanks for the quick reply! I actually spoke to a builder in Toorak who was on the Masterwall website with a display home and he raved about it. Have you already started construction? How will the foam panels travel to the ground, obviously with the lightness of the product it will not need any weight bearing system, does it need any special flashing or process in fixing it down to ground level, so water and etc can't get into it and onto the frame? Secondly are you going to affix them your self of employ a chippy / Masterwall installer and if so did you have an idea of the costs associated with the installation and or rendering?? I must agree the thermal benefits and ease of installation are very big plus's, any idea why bricks are still the largest method of building if they are more labour intensvie / costly and not as thermally efficient?? Cheers, thanks again. Hunts. Masterwall will install them rendered for $105 per sqm (75mm thick). They guarantee them too, though will check about the water ingress.... Haven't started building yet, plans just finished. _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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u9026a
Joined: 09 Jun 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Sydney	So this is just polystyrene placed over a frame made of wood or steel? I guess it must work our reasonably priced but have you considered a proper ICF? I am now building my second home out of an ICF (EcoBlock) and after living in the first one I simply would never build in anything else. The benefits are enormous, its really quiet, heating bills are minuscule and its as strong as a concrete bunker (which is what it is I suppose). I sound like an advert for the industry I know but I think the product is just so much better than any other building method, there really is no comparison, just my opinion anyhow. Good luck.
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	u9026a wrote: So this is just polystyrene placed over a frame made of wood or steel? I guess it must work our reasonably priced but have you considered a proper ICF? I am now building my second home out of an ICF (EcoBlock) and after living in the first one I simply would never build in anything else. The benefits are enormous, its really quiet, heating bills are minuscule and its as strong as a concrete bunker (which is what it is I suppose). I sound like an advert for the industry I know but I think the product is just so much better than any other building method, there really is no comparison, just my opinion anyhow. Good luck. I have considered ICF. I think ICF is a great product, and I have investigated every manufacturer - Thermacell, Zego, Insulbrick, Ecoblock, Polyform, Formcraft. However there are several reasons why I won't use ICF - - Very expensive - Finding anyone who will install it is very hard, as a result getting quotes to build is pretty much impossible. - Structural engineering is complicated and expensive. - Energy rating not as good as Polystyrene cladding over frame (steel or timber) JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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hunts01
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 Posts: 193	Thanksfor the input, I tend to agree with JB, the eco blocks for example would no doubt be fantastic, but as an owner builder I think I would need to employ specialised people for a lot of the work, where as timber frame / hebel / foam cladding I can do alot of the work myself. Out of interest how more expensive would you expect the eco block system to be. Compared to the lighter cladding sytems, you would need to have substantial footings throughout the house not just strip footing underneath the external walls. Concrete is expensive as well how much would you anticipate needing??. I have done some extra research and have come up with a few solutions for hebel. The hebel sits on a steel / aluminum channel that is fixed to the frame (no strip footings - cost saver ) and set the panels so they are at the right level on the top, and obviously as they won't reach the ground there will be some gap. You can either use another bracket at ground level and waterproof the hebel sheet where it will touch the ground, or you can simply build an extra timber wall underneath the house and affix blueboard or similar and run that into the ground and up to the channel. Then you just render over the whole lot. The bottom sheet is just for aesthetics, it doesn't matter really what it is, although I would probably use the hebel in outdoor areas that are used and areas that aren't, such as the south wall where no one would go, blue board it up. I also discovered that hebel comes in 3m lengths which would help out a lot. In relation to the foam it isn't recommended that it touch the ground of course you could probably do something similar if you wanted. But I am sure the experts who install it would know what to do. At the end of the day the draftsmen said whatever method we chose, he could posistion windows / doors etc so that minimal cutting of pre fabed sheets would happen. Another alternative to Masterwall for people wanting to do the install themselves, is RMAX which comes from the factory with the fibreglass mesh already affixed, to save time later on!
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	hunts01 wrote: Out of interest how more expensive would you expect the eco block system to be. Eco block is the best and the most expensive of the ICFs, because it is 30cm thick, others are around 22cm thick. The cost depends on how structural the wall is. A retaining wall might cost $250/sqm. A standard house wall would be more like $180/sqm. Then you have to render it for another $50/sqm. JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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u9026a
Joined: 09 Jun 2008 Posts: 59 Location: Sydney	James Bond wrote: However there are several reasons why I won't use ICF - - Very expensive - Finding anyone who will install it is very hard, as a result getting quotes to build is pretty much impossible. - Structural engineering is complicated and expensive. - Energy rating not as good as Polystyrene cladding over frame (steel or timber) JB - Expensive - yes I suppose it is, about 10% more than a bv but when you consider the benefits, its not expensive at all. - The company will quote and install so finding a builder isn't a problem. - Engineering is easy - I don't understand your comment at all. They are also incorporating a steel replacement in the concrete (Barchip) which saves literally thousands on steel costs. - As for the energy rating not being as good a ploystyrene cladding? Ecoblock has 130mm of the stuff. How thick is the cladding? By the way, the standard Ecoblock is actually 279mm thick, with a 150mm concrete core, the rest being polystyrene. But they do make a thinner version as well if you are short of funds.
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	Hmmm the incredible amount of hassle I have had with this particular industry sector has really put me off building with it. Nothing wrong with the product, just dealing with it and the companies that make it is a nightmare. JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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Yak_Chat
Joined: 17 Apr 2007 Posts: 3796 Location: Near the water	So tell them that they are a pain and see if they are really interested in doing the job for you.
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	Yak_Chat wrote: So tell them that they are a pain and see if they are really interested in doing the job for you. The problem is there are 7 companies who make the stuff, each block is a different size. So you can only have engineering done for one type of block. Once you have engineering done, there is only 1, or max 2, builders who build using each block, and if they won't quote or come with poor references, you are stuffed............ JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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summergrace
Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 78 Location: Inner West, Melbourne	James Bond wrote: I have considered ICF. I think ICF is a great product, and I have investigated every manufacturer - Thermacell, Zego, Insulbrick, Ecoblock, Polyform, Formcraft. However there are several reasons why I won't use ICF - - Very expensive - Finding anyone who will install it is very hard, as a result getting quotes to build is pretty much impossible. - Structural engineering is complicated and expensive. - Energy rating not as good as Polystyrene cladding over frame (steel or timber) Hi JB, I have a brochure for insulbrick 170 which says the r rating is 2.8. In Masterwall's website, it says its r rating is 2.7. Unless I am missing something, doesn't seem to be much different between the 2!
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James Bond
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	summergrace wrote: Hi JB, I have a brochure for insulbrick 170 which says the r rating is 2.8. In Masterwall's website, it says its r rating is 2.7. Unless I am missing something, doesn't seem to be much different between the 2! Masterwall has 3 thicknesses. The 100mm one is R3.1. There isn't a lot of difference, both are significantly better than anything else. Masterwall or other poly claddings are significantly easier to work with than ICF. JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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summergrace
Joined: 04 Jul 2008 Posts: 78 Location: Inner West, Melbourne	James Bond wrote: Masterwall has 3 thicknesses. The 100mm one is R3.1. There isn't a lot of difference, both are significantly better than anything else. Masterwall or other poly claddings are significantly easier to work with than ICF. JB I am not a owner builder.... so i guess it doesn't matter .......
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lambchoppa	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam
Joined: 07 May 2009 Posts: 60	Hunts01 Don't rule out hebel. It is good product and according to the website you can get r 3.74 (power panel + double + bulk) on the walls. I have chatted to them on the phone, you can fit just to a timber frame or 2nd storey, you just need more tophats ie only 2 required if sitting on footing, 3 or more if above. The recommend using a damp proof sheet below (watch the video). I think it costs all up about $115/m2 incl. render. Screws go on from the inside. You can also fix plumbing to the outside of the frame before the hebel goes on.
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andy_min	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam
Joined: 04 Apr 2009 Posts: 498 Location: The Ponds	Hi, I am not an OB but we used polyfoam on our house reno a few years ago now. It has been up for 6 years now and still look as good as the day they finished it. From living in the house before (with normal vinyl cladding) to after we definitely noticed the thermal benefits and we have also done 0 maintainance since having it done. Ours comes down onto the driveway concrete on one side of our house and it just has a plastic channel on the bottom that keeps the raw edge of foam from touching the ground. No problem with water for us but behind the foam sheets the walls are full of the expanding spray foam so, I dont think any water could get in anyway. Other bonuses are the fire retardant properties and also the big bonus for us is it has the flexibility to move with the house. Being a piered 40 year old house on highly reactive clay, there is not one crack anywhere on the outside of the house even though we have a few cracks on the inside. We joke that its holding the house up. Good Luck with the build whatever your choice. Min _________________ Building at The Ponds Land reg 3/12/09, Land settled 18/12/09 Approved by Design Panel 16/11/09, Submitted to council 24/11/09, Approved by Council 21/1/10 Site Start 21/5/10 http://andyminpondsbuild.blogspot.com/ http://forum.homeone.com.au/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=19800
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elchagie	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam vs blueboard
Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Posts: 41	I will do blueboard and render it for cladding system outside ,do yo think this will look good ?and maybe cost less than Master wall or Hebel ,I need your opinion please because the draft need my decision .
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James Bond	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam vs blueboard
Joined: 01 Nov 2008 Posts: 408 Location: Bayside Melbourne	elchagie wrote: I will do blueboard and render it for cladding system outside ,do yo think this will look good ?and maybe cost less than Master wall or Hebel ,I need your opinion please because the draft need my decision . Rendered blue board will look very similar to rendered Masterwall or Rendered Hebel. However it will offer you no insulation at all and you may find depending on which State you are building in that you won't be able to get your energy rating using this method. JB _________________ ' Shaken....not stirred.... Blog - http://baysidelifestyle.blogspot.com/
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elchagie	Post subject: Re: Hebel vs Brick vs Polyfoam
Joined: 14 Mar 2009 Posts: 41
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